| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dani |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 07:59:34 AM
I hate to write this but I noticed this topic has become an issue in Oxnard. I personally believe everyone has their right to choose to smoke or not to smoke but when you are supposed to be playing in a bar (non-smoking I might add) and someone lights up a cigarette the whole bar is going to smell like cigarette and have cigarette smoke lingering in the area due to, in most situations, poor ventilation. I have tried the walking up to someone and asking politely if they would refrain from smoking in the bar, at least until I leave, due to my being pregnant. Sometimes it works, others well it doesn't. I understand smoking in bars in Ventura county is illegal. I don't think that a team here or there can change what the public is going to do but why not at least obey the laws of the county while you are representing the APA.
Once again to those smokers out there this is not a stab at you! |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| snipes |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 1:19:36 PM
Thanx to Phil for the reminder on how one should act in a public forum of adults. And another thanx to Luke for stating the reason for the "State" law prohibiting smoking in a public place. I was already well aware of the law and that it was written for the employee and NOT THE GENERAL PUBLC, but after not owning my own business of 5 or less for the past 4 years I wasn't sure if the law had changed or not (hence the statement "I may be wrong").  |
| lukecm |
Posted - 12/26/2005 : 07:45:23 AM
Just for the record:
The anti-smoking laws are a state law, which is enforced at the local level. The City of Los Angeles has required the fire department to be responsible for enforcement of the law. In other areas, it is enforced by the police department. Most officers, regardless of the agency for which they work, resent even having to enforce this code, as they feel it doesn't fall into their job description.
With that said, the law in California does have some loopholes. Remember, the law was passed to protect the safety and health of an establishment's employees, not it's customers. The concept? A customer does not have to remain in the smoky environment, while an employee does. The most prominent one is that an establishment with 5 or less employees may permit smoking if all of the employees consent to it. There are many bars in California who have received citations fot allowing smoking, and have won their argument based upon this law.
Bottom line: Smoking in a particular establishmnet is not always illegal and it is meant to protect employees, not customers. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 09:10:28 AM
Dani,
you are most certainly correct that the nuisances I described are not necessarily health affecting. I happen to be one of those people who doesn't really care about my health. That will probably come back to bite me at some juncture but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. What I most certainly care about is the enjoyment of my friends and colleagues in the league. And to reiterate a point I tried to make earlier, unfortunately when it comes to establishments that do allow smoking, there is nothing the APA can do. It does suck for the non-smokers who really hate it, but the only recourse is to move your team to a different location. And I also want to reiterate one more time, I don't know of a single player personally in this league that would refuse a polite request not to smoke right at the table. While this doesn't necessarily rid you of the overall kind of nasty funk that a smoke filled room has, at least it's not right in your eyeballs.
As an aside, I want to echo Phil's sentiment. Max, this is not a forum to insult or speak aggressively to anyone. While everyone in this league that I know very much appreciates your contributions and all members of our military's contributions to defending our rights and freedom, we are only trying to discuss and perhaps make improvements to the league we all enjoy. Your input and suggestions of course are welcome and appreciated.
"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." Adlai Stevenson |
| Kerry Randolph |
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 08:53:15 AM
Let me set the record straight. I am not leaving the APA. I thoroughly enjoy playing in this league. Depending on what happens this week in playoffs I will either stay in my Oxnard league (if we qualify for regionals) or I will try to switch to a Ventura team. My problem with playing for a different team in the same Oxnard league is that I like my teammates very much and would feel bad about playing against them or helping another team to be prosperous, but that is just me.
Torsten you did not come off wrong, I thought you made your point without sounding defensive. |
| Taz |
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 08:48:54 AM
Whether an establishment allows smoking or not, is out of our control; however, having said that, smoking "at the table" (if this means having a cigarette over the pool table) is extremely frowned upon and should not be done. It is considered rude, bad pool etiquette and can cause damage to a table. |
| Phil |
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 1:34:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dani
quote:
Originally posted by snipes
I may be wrong here, but I think there are some places that you can smoke legally in California. I believe if the establishment is owner/operated, it is legal. Therefore, I would be careful in saying someone representing APA is breaking the law when in fact they may not. Oh, here's a thought...
If you are playing pool in an establishment that allows smoking and you don't agree, forfeit your match and go home. Remember, in America, we have a freedom of choice.
I used to be a smoker myself and have since quit, however, I do believe smokers have a right to smoke in public too!
I believe is the standard of the misinformed. You use that statement with your fullest potential of not really knowing what your talking about. You are right, you can smoke anywhere you want to where the public is given free access..........outside! It is California State Law that you can not smoke inside public establishments. This isn't Dani, but someone who knows what your precious little sense of freedom really is. I have spent the last six or so years defending just that, and when I hear people like you comment on what they think their freedoms are, it makes me rather mad. Perhaps you should remember that here in America we can can think of people other than ourselves. Take a second and look past your own nose and you'll find a whole world out there you have probably never seen.
Before this stuff gets out of hand, I would like to remind everyone that personal attacks will not be tolerated on this board. Snipes began his post with "I may be wrong" and did not deserve to be verbally assaulted in reply. Discuss to your heart's content, but stay away from the personal insults.
Phil
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| Dani |
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 1:18:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Torsten
I smoke, and have played in the league for a long time now. I have encountered only very few establishments that allow it indoors. I humbly ask my APA colleagues not to let the occasional place that allows smoking affect your overall happiness with the league. The APA has no authority to alter an establishment's smoking policy (yes I know it's illegal) dress code, language code, or anything else.
During my time in the APA, which has spanned several years, I have played against players with offensive body odor, breath that reeks of vomit, people who use horribly obscene language, people with severe flatulence, (no joke, you have no idea how hard it is to line up a long 8 ball cut when your opponent is busting ass every three seconds) and a variety of other nuisances. The bottom line is, this is the minority of time, and significantly so. I would hope that many of the great folks I have met through the league (yeah, you're included Kato) wouldn't let something beyond the league's control make you leave us. Granted, your options are limited but most teams carry 7 or 8 players. If you know you will be at a smoking establishment, try to arrange to have your players who suffer from athsma or simply can't stand the smoke take the night off.
I play on three teams at three different spots and none of them allow smoking. I have only been to three places in my entire time with the league that do allow it so this can't be a problem that pops up all the time. One of them is a place I used to have my team in on Monday nights. On very few occasions did an opponent request me or my team not to smoke right at the table. In the spirit of sporting play and good fun, we obliged. Most people would. I would also recommend that any APA member who is politely approached about not smoking right at the table and refuses be subject to a sportsmanship note in their file.
Not to be repetetive, but I ask again. My friends and colleagues, don't leave us over smoking in bars. Less than 10 years ago, smoking was allowed in all bars and not illegal. Our collective constitutions could not possibly have weakened so much that we now can't tolerate it once a week for a few hours. REspectfully, and sincerely
Torsten
"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." Adlai Stevenson
Torsten-
There is one main thing that I would like to say in response to your comment which is...
players with offensive body odor, breath that reeks of vomit, people who use horribly obscene language, people with severe flatulence -- yes all nuisances. None of which actually affect your health.
As for leaving the league I agree that the option of leaving league would be a harsh response to smoking in a bar, however switching where you play is an option. I do also know that when a person decides which area to play in--Ventura, Oxnard, Thousand Oaks, Moorpark-- something that does go into play for the most part is where their place of work or home is so that their night out is somewhat convenient. Either way, the point being that nobody should be put in a position to have to change where they play league or go to a bar etc. because in California it is illegal to smoke in public establishment. (I called and checked with law enforcement to make sure and it is in ALL public establishments in California)
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| Dani |
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 1:02:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by snipes
I may be wrong here, but I think there are some places that you can smoke legally in California. I believe if the establishment is owner/operated, it is legal. Therefore, I would be careful in saying someone representing APA is breaking the law when in fact they may not. Oh, here's a thought...
If you are playing pool in an establishment that allows smoking and you don't agree, forfeit your match and go home. Remember, in America, we have a freedom of choice.
I used to be a smoker myself and have since quit, however, I do believe smokers have a right to smoke in public too!
I believe is the standard of the misinformed. You use that statement with your fullest potential of not really knowing what your talking about. You are right, you can smoke anywhere you want to where the public is given free access..........outside! It is California State Law that you can not smoke inside public establishments. This isn't Dani, but someone who knows what your precious little sense of freedom really is. I have spent the last six or so years defending just that, and when I hear people like you comment on what they think their freedoms are, it makes me rather mad. Perhaps you should remember that here in America we can can think of people other than ourselves. Take a second and look past your own nose and you'll find a whole world out there you have probably never seen. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 08:01:46 AM
I think I may have come accross poorly. Kerry, I fully understand where you are coming from. If the second hand smoke really has such a harsh effect on you then it would be fully understandable for you remove yourself from that situation. I would hope though, that you would consider moving to a different home location that does not allow smoking indoors rather than leave the APA. Again, whether you hate smoking or otherwise, I wouldn't want to see anyone leave our league because of it.
And for all the bleeding heart anti-smokers, I KNOW IT'S NOT GOOD FOR ME! Neither are the dozen or so beers I have on a given night. Neither was the McDonalds I had for dinner last night. I don't give a damn. This isn't about what smoking is doing to my life expectancy. I simply don't want to lose any of my esteemed colleagues over something like smoking where there may be other avenues. Maybe we just need to find more options as home locations where smoking is not allowed. I know of a pool hall called The Rack that just opened in the Topanga Westfield Shopping Plaza. Someone must be able to help Kerry out with locations that don't allow smoking. My Monday night location, The Borderline is NOT a pool hall per se. It's a restaurant/bar that happens to have a couple of tables and a patio provided for the smokers. It can't possibly be the only place like that in Ventura County...
"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." Adlai Stevenson |
| Jinny |
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 07:55:57 AM
Hi Kerry.
Since 50% of your matches are played at home, you could reduce the amount of smoke you are subjected to by choosing a home location that does not allow smoking. Oxnard 9-ball has 8 locations and 4 allow smoking. If you change to a location that does not allow smoking, depending on the length of the season, you would only have to play at smoking bars 4 times. Just a thought.
Don't give up on Oxnard, be creative.
Jinny |
| lngou |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 7:44:23 PM
This is a subject I am interested in. I am a non-smoker. I grew up with a group great friends, all of whom smoked. Through the years I lost three of them through cancer and heart attacks. I'm not against people's right to smoke. I do ask the smokers to respect the equipment (the pool table cloth), and not smoke at the table. The tables get dirty enough with the excess chalk and powder. Let's not add cigarette ashes to the mess. Some establishments clean the table after a group leaves, but many do not. Thank you. |
| Kerry Randolph |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 5:26:47 PM
Torsten I appreciate your calm and civil response. This can be a hot topic, however you did respond like a smoker. Most smokers have no idea what it is like to be a nonsmoker around people who smoke. I have always said if a smoker could smell themselves they would quit. I have never smoked so I do not pretend to know the allure, or the addiction.
A few hours in a smoke filled bar does more than you realize. If I play in an establishment that allows smoking I go home stinking. This is just the superficial problem. I cant even smell myself until I get home. That is because the smoke has numbed or dulled or overloaded or whatever it does to my sence of smell. I have to shower before I go to bed, the clothes I was wearing have to be left in the garage.
On November 17th I played at our home site in Oxnard. I had to stay the whole night. The bar was packed and it seemed like everyone smoked. I had to go outside several times because I just could not take it anymore. The next morning my sinuses and throat were raw and dry. I wound up getting a sinus infection that required 10 days of antibiotics. Every time I play at one of these establishments, the next day I do not feel like myself and I am short of breath. I know this is bad for my body. I do not know if you know this or not, but a ciggarete has over 100 toxic chemicals in it.
I play in Oxnard. We have 6 different locations we play at. 4 of those allow people to smoke. I am thinking of quitting that league because of it.
It is my right to not smoke. I do not begrudge anyone who does. I have the option of not being around people that smoke. It is a dirty, disgusting, and unhealthful habit, but it is your body do to it what you will. I will continue to take care of mine. |
| snipes |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 5:03:15 PM
I may be wrong here, but I think there are some places that you can smoke legally in California. I believe if the establishment is owner/operated, it is legal. Therefore, I would be careful in saying someone representing APA is breaking the law when in fact they may not. Oh, here's a thought...
If you are playing pool in an establishment that allows smoking and you don't agree, forfeit your match and go home. Remember, in America, we have a freedom of choice.
I used to be a smoker myself and have since quit, however, I do believe smokers have a right to smoke in public too! |
| Torsten |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 1:23:17 PM
I smoke, and have played in the league for a long time now. I have encountered only very few establishments that allow it indoors. I humbly ask my APA colleagues not to let the occasional place that allows smoking affect your overall happiness with the league. The APA has no authority to alter an establishment's smoking policy (yes I know it's illegal) dress code, language code, or anything else.
During my time in the APA, which has spanned several years, I have played against players with offensive body odor, breath that reeks of vomit, people who use horribly obscene language, people with severe flatulence, (no joke, you have no idea how hard it is to line up a long 8 ball cut when your opponent is busting ass every three seconds) and a variety of other nuisances. The bottom line is, this is the minority of time, and significantly so. I would hope that many of the great folks I have met through the league (yeah, you're included Kato) wouldn't let something beyond the league's control make you leave us. Granted, your options are limited but most teams carry 7 or 8 players. If you know you will be at a smoking establishment, try to arrange to have your players who suffer from athsma or simply can't stand the smoke take the night off.
I play on three teams at three different spots and none of them allow smoking. I have only been to three places in my entire time with the league that do allow it so this can't be a problem that pops up all the time. One of them is a place I used to have my team in on Monday nights. On very few occasions did an opponent request me or my team not to smoke right at the table. In the spirit of sporting play and good fun, we obliged. Most people would. I would also recommend that any APA member who is politely approached about not smoking right at the table and refuses be subject to a sportsmanship note in their file.
Not to be repetetive, but I ask again. My friends and colleagues, don't leave us over smoking in bars. Less than 10 years ago, smoking was allowed in all bars and not illegal. Our collective constitutions could not possibly have weakened so much that we now can't tolerate it once a week for a few hours. REspectfully, and sincerely
Torsten
"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." Adlai Stevenson |
| katolin007 |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 10:31:41 AM
It is not only an issue in Ventura or Oxnard, it is here. I have players who have asthma and the smoke affects their level of play. On my Tuesday Team, I have one smoker. At one location he started to "light up" because other players in the establishment were smoking. I immediately told him to smoke outside. He wasn't happy but I told him it is against the law and to go outside. As team co-captain he listened. The other players looked at me like I had 3 heads. I have invited over 8 potential new players to "come and see" our matches in hopes of getting them into the APA. I didn't realize how many non-smokers I knew, that was their only complaint. "Why would I want to subject myself to second-hand smoke on purpose, just because the bar allows the players to smoke and break the law, no thanks, I'll just play pool in places that adhere to CA state law."
Please understand that I am not getting on a soapbox against smoking, I agree with Dani, I am simply pointing out the fact that smoking is a choice and we should not subject others to smoke against their will. On my Wednesday and Sunday team, we hit places that everyone smokes inside and other places where they smoke outside. It truly depends on the establishment.
I am posting this because, it's already bad enough that I get dirty looks from the patrons of the bar to ask them to smoke elsewhere while my asthmatic player is shooting, it's tough when you have to tell the opponent they are shooting against to put out their cig. I was accused of trying to "shark" him because he played better when smoking. He said wait till you get to Vegas, where they allow you to smoke.
Alas, I've been told the final statement which sums it up for me..."Hey dude, evey league has the same problem, deal with it or find some other hobby".
And that is something I am actually contemplating on for the spring session.
Domo Arigato
"One makes mistakes due to lack of experience; To gain an experience, one has to make a mistake" |
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