| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sharpshooter |
Posted - 09/06/2006 : 11:24:48 AM
I couldn't stay the entire time in vegas ,but I heard that the top 2 teams were disqualified and that the runner up teams played for the National Title. Is this true and if so why were they disqualified?? |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Phil |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 5:26:13 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by approval, Doug. The NHRC does not usually consult with the offending team's league operator. Once in a while they do, but more often than not the LO isn't there or there is no need.
Phil
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| Doug Gill |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 2:51:59 PM
OK......my turn!
Tom, Phil mentioned truth and honesty earlier and that is the key factor for everyone, from skill level 2 up the food chain to the National office. Those traits are recognized by the APA at all levels.
You want a true benchmark? Use yourself and what you believe is your true skill level, evaluate others based on this and you will be accurate with your assesments more times than not.
The key to this whole system is belief in the system. My belief about the DQs listed above is that it couldn't have happened without the approval, intentional or not, of the offending teams league operators.
Just my thoughts. 
Good Shooting All! |
| bikercowboy |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 09:38:43 AM
thhxke originally stated>>> I think it pretty amazing that while this >>>thread has got very long and drawn out no one has really answered the >>>original question.
>>> That is ..."How can a player "Certify his own ranking" when he >>>has no concept of how the ranking is determined in the 1st place.
How do you rate yourself against other players? In my mind I have a conception of whom I will beat half the time, most of the time, none of the time ( only 1 player in this category and that may be because I have only played him once 75 or 85 - 5 (whatever an 8 has to make for 9 ball. take your subjective assessment of your skill, add the knowledge of opposing players ranking, and your subjective knowledge of misranked players should give you a reasonably quantifyable <sp> cert. The new player who only plays league players on league night might have a hard time but not seasoned players.Just my $.02
Joe |
| Phil |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 10:45:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by trhxke
I think it pretty amazing that while this thread has got very long and drawn out no one has really answered the original question.
That is ..."How can a player "Certify his own ranking" when he has no concept of how the ranking is determined in the 1st place.
You don't have to be right, just honest. While you may not be able to say you're a 7 or you're a 6, I think you know you're better than a 5, without any specific definition of what it means to be a 5. If you know you're better than a 5 but certify yourself as a 5 anyway, you could get yourself in trouble. That's the only point of the cert form.
quote:
If the ranking system is that good, consistent, fair and just..... it should be quantifiable and definable in the English language and I have yet to see that.
It is my hope that you never do, unless you buy a franchise and become a league operator. In the early days of the APA, the handicap formula was actually published in the team manual. I'll give you three guesses what happened, and the first two don't count. The more information that is available, the more dishonest players will use that information to cheat those of you who are honest. Therefore, we try to keep it all confidential. Unfortunately, that means we have to keep everyone in the dark as much as we can.
quote:
The generalities just don't cut it if the specifics are going to cost you the championship AFTER you have won it.
Sorry Phil but while I do trust you and Taz there are just too many secrets held too close to the vests of too many people whom I don't know for me to NOT question the whole system that is dependent on the integrity of a system built on those vary secrets.
Trade secrets and confidentiality are at the heart of American capitalism. In the case of the APA, the secrecy is a necessity to protect the integrity of the system. It's all copyrighted, so nobody can create a competitor league that uses the same formula. But in order to provide the best possible product for our customers, we have found that we must keep those same customers somewhat "in the dark" or those customers with less scruples will use the information to gain an unfair advantage over the others.
quote:
Isn't this sort of how the "Masons" started?
Anyways, the system is the system and it works fine the way it is and I enjoy the competition so I don't have to have ALL the answers but I still intend to ask the questions.
Ask away. You won't get any specifics from me. It is in our best interest (and the best interest of our customer base as a whole) not to divulge that information to anyone. That way, we are doing everything we can to ensure that it doesn't get into the hands of the wrong people, who will use it to destroy the product for everyone else.
Phil
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| trhxke |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 5:40:40 PM
I think it pretty amazing that while this thread has got very long and drawn out no one has really answered the original question.
That is ..."How can a player "Certify his own ranking" when he has no concept of how the ranking is determined in the 1st place.
If the ranking system is that good, consistent, fair and just..... it should be quantifiable and definable in the English language and I have yet to see that.
The generalities just don't cut it if the specifics are going to cost you the championship AFTER you have won it.
Sorry Phil but while I do trust you and Taz there are just too many secrets held too close to the vests of too many people whom I don't know for me to NOT question the whole system that is dependent on the integrity of a system built on those vary secrets.
Isn't this sort of how the "Masons" started?
Anyways, the system is the system and it works fine the way it is and I enjoy the competition so I don't have to have ALL the answers but I still intend to ask the questions.
Torsten maybe we'll get to play that first match this season, since I am currently a 7 in Nine Ball, it may be the perfect time for you to take advantage of "THE SYSTEM" that put me there (or as you say promoted me there).......he he.
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, darts and various colletibles. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 4:59:39 PM
Don't forget also, that being bumped up a skill level should be seen as a reward, not a potential hindrance. When I got bumped from a 5 to a 6, my initial response was <i>about effin time!</i> Then I got my butt kicked in my first few matches at that skill level. So I decided to do the absolutely UNTHINKABLE and drink a little less beer so I could play at a level that justified my promotion. That and I practiced a bit more. Also, there are some pretty damn good players around that have been 7s and 9s for a while that also happen to be pretty damn nice people... and are likely willing to give you a pointer or two to help you improve to where you are comfortable with your new, higher ranking. In your case, Tommy, any struggles you are having at 7 must be psychological. You shoot well and you know the game. Worry not and let's look forward to the new season. If I recall correctly, you and I have STILL never played head to head.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy." |
| Phil |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 3:08:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by trhxke
ooooooooK,
That is all very interesting stuff.....but.....
I'm trying to get a better idea how to SELF RATE. The APA requires that a player CERTYIFY his own skill level and then they want to hold him to that SELF CERTIFICATION, at the same time you admit yourself that the SKILL LEVEL is a subjective ranking by way of a SECRET formula that is not available to the player who is required to CERTIFY his own rank.
I know this is probably a rare and unusual situation that may NEVER come up for me but since several teams were disqualified as you said then it must come up more than it should and sounds like when it does it is at the worst possible time for the team as well as the players involved.
If I look at my own status in 9 ball it concerns me greatly. I am currently ranked a 7 and I honestly think that that I am over ranked and I am a fairly good 6 (not a seven). I also understand that I can sometimes perform at a level of 7 or maybe even 8 but just not consistently. What if I have another player on my team that also falls into this catagory.... (and I believe that Jay is a good example)...
Suppose we both play less that our best all season but by some fluke our team get to regionals and on to nationals and there we are with this kind of situation. I am really a 6 and he is really a 4 but I play like a 7 or 8 and he plays like a 5 or 6, we both get bumped a skill level and now we are subject to disqualification.
It seems by your explanations that our only safe path would be to CERTIFY OURSELVES at a rank higher than what we are and pretty much guarantee that we will NOT WIN. Either way the result is the same, the team will go down in flames. Of course we could just put all our trust in the APA to do the right thing and not worry about it. Then it follows that we should also trust the years of historical play recorded by the APA to properly rank us by their secret formula and accept blindly the ranking as is....who are we to question that APA league operator wisdom?
I know these hypotheticals are some times tedious but I also know there are others who have the same concerns and have just not taken the time or trouble to pursue an answers. Maybe if those teams who were disqualified had ask these questions last year they would now have some trophies to show for their efforts.
If you read my post Tom, you'll see that all the APA expects on the certification form is HONESTY. By the time a team is DQ'd, the APA is pretty certain that team is dishonest. That's why it takes so long.
Last year we (South Coast) had a player certify himself as a 5 in 9-Ball. During the course of the tournament he went up to a 7. Two numbers! Yet there wasn't even a question of disqualification. Why? Because the NHRC felt the guy was just having the week of his life. And he was - his teammates were shocked to see him play so well. The team finished seventeenth and there was never a question of their integrity. The downside, of course, is that this player got locked in at 7 via the APA's National Lowest Attainable program and has not been able to duplicate that performance since. But hey, he's certainly gonna remember catching fire in the national tournament and being rewarded for it!
Bottom line, don't worry about being precise in your self-rating - just be honest and you'll have nothing to worry about. And yes, you will have to trust your league operators to do their job. It is in our best interest that our players are accurately rated. Oh, and I'm sure you understand why we must keep the details of the system private - not every player/team is as honest as you are.
Phil
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| Kerry Randolph |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 1:11:11 PM
Tom
You are trying to figure out probably the toughest skill level situation there is. When a player is strong six or four or any level. and they sometimes go up a level than come back down. Are they a six or a seven, a four or a five? One thing you need to think about is how have they gotten to this point. Did they just get a little better as they played more and naturally make a few more shots a game? Have they been playing the same people over and over and learned how to beat them? Have they been playing people that are not at the top of their game and gotten a few wins that way? If so than I tend to think they are still the lower level. Unless they can sustain a winning percentage for a season or two.
Now on the other hand, did they start taking the game more seriously? maybe start practicing or practicing better and more often? Maybe they play a few tournaments, or back off on the alchohol when playing. Have they been watching what the better players do and listen and learn from them? Have they made themselves a better or smarter player? If so than they are ready to move up a skill level.
For myself I look at the people I play and if I find myself beating the players I normally have trouble with, than I know my practice is working and my ability is going up. I recently went from a six to a seven in nine ball, and after some thought I agree that my overall skill has gone up enough to warrant the change.
Now, I played a lady in Vegas that was a four, and when she was done with me I emphatically stated she was no four. I watched her the whole match. Like Phil stated you look at a lot of different factors. She made a lot of shots and they all hit the back of the pocket, no jigglers. she worked the cue ball with excellent speed and use of english. She also went from one shot to the next with an aura of confidence like she knew what shew was doing. She had a real smooth stroke, and kept her head real still throughtout the shot. When she slopped in a few balls she would shake her head and almost appologize for that going in. She beat me 17-3 I have only lost one other time that bad, and that was by a guy I know can shoot lights out. So it really is about the all around game.
I don't know if this helps or not. |
| trhxke |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 11:58:05 AM
ooooooooK,
That is all very interesting stuff.....but.....
I'm trying to get a better idea how to SELF RATE. The APA requires that a player CERTYIFY his own skill level and then they want to hold him to that SELF CERTIFICATION, at the same time you admit yourself that the SKILL LEVEL is a subjective ranking by way of a SECRET formula that is not available to the player who is required to CERTIFY his own rank.
I know this is probably a rare and unusual situation that may NEVER come up for me but since several teams were disqualified as you said then it must come up more than it should and sounds like when it does it is at the worst possible time for the team as well as the players involved.
If I look at my own status in 9 ball it concerns me greatly. I am currently ranked a 7 and I honestly think that that I am over ranked and I am a fairly good 6 (not a seven). I also understand that I can sometimes perform at a level of 7 or maybe even 8 but just not consistently. What if I have another player on my team that also falls into this catagory.... (and I believe that Jay is a good example)...
Suppose we both play less that our best all season but by some fluke our team get to regionals and on to nationals and there we are with this kind of situation. I am really a 6 and he is really a 4 but I play like a 7 or 8 and he plays like a 5 or 6, we both get bumped a skill level and now we are subject to disqualification.
It seems by your explanations that our only safe path would be to CERTIFY OURSELVES at a rank higher than what we are and pretty much guarantee that we will NOT WIN. Either way the result is the same, the team will go down in flames. Of course we could just put all our trust in the APA to do the right thing and not worry about it. Then it follows that we should also trust the years of historical play recorded by the APA to properly rank us by their secret formula and accept blindly the ranking as is....who are we to question that APA league operator wisdom?
I know these hypotheticals are some times tedious but I also know there are others who have the same concerns and have just not taken the time or trouble to pursue an answers. Maybe if those teams who were disqualified had ask these questions last year they would now have some trophies to show for their efforts. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 11:41:28 AM
Tommy, I would be inclined to say that it's not necessarily a combination of skills or lack thereof that a certain player has that validates their skill level. I don't know how these things are calculated but the proof is in the pudding when you consider that 99% of established players in our area are fairly handicapped. That said, many have gotten to their levels via different avenues. Let's take 3 factors; shooting and shot making ability, strategy and decision making, discipline (not shooting obvious scratch, e-8 and s-8 shots) and defensive play. A player can shoot with the hand skill proficiency of a medium strenght 6, but excercise poor strategy and discipline. Conversely, you could have a player who shoots with the proficiency of a weak 4, but shows good strategy, discipline, and follows the advice of a knowledgeable coach. Both of these players, in terms of purely skill will be vastly different but likely ranked similarly and be similarly successful. I have a player on one of my teams with jaw-dropping shotmaking ability. This often leads opponents to say, "there's no way that guy is a 4!!!" which is basically a thinly veiled accusation of being a sandbagger. Unfortunately, this player will unlikely ever realize his potential because his shot selection and strategy are diabolical, he frequently gives frames away through undisciplined shots resulting in early 8 balls, and he would rather play a 6-rail combo bank masse jump shot blindfolded that play a defense. I would also say this player doesn't listen to coaching. But the truth is, he does listen quite attentively and then makes a conscious decision to disregard the advice he has been given. So instead of reaching his potential (a strong 5) he is a 4 and statistically, win-loss record wise, a pretty weak 4. Anyway, the point of this long-winded diatribe was to say that having a checklist of necessary attributes to play at a certain level is impossible.
Then you have the wildcard. How do they do under pressure? You would be surprised at how many 5s and 6s choke on fairly easy 8 ball shots, and how many 2s and 3s are able to shoot at a clutch 8 ball with the same calmness they would approach shooting their first shot of the first frame.
Now i'm gonna stop because I've succeeded in confusing myself..
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy." |
| sharpshooter |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 11:13:21 AM
Thanx Phil 4 clearing that up 4 me.You can't always believe what you here you know! |
| Phil |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 10:54:46 AM
You ask some good questions, Tom. Judging a player's skill level is a subjective process - there is no recipe that will cook up a number for you. The "recipe" in the computer is based on a history of results and is the best around, but as we all know there is no purely objective formula that will be right 100% of the time for everyone. This is why there is a national handicap review committee and a team of observers at nationals.
The observer program was started about six years ago, partly due to some things I did at previous national events. The observers are all league operators in good standing and all of us are experienced, high-rated players. When we watch a match we are looking at all facets of a player's game, not just the results they get. We look at stance, stroke, speed, spin, planning, defense, break, banks & kicks, table presence, etc. We also record luck shots, unintentional safeties, and ball-in-hands received. These are all things that don't appear on the scoresheet. We use a form to grade each player on each facet we observe. These grades help us come up with an "observed" skill level for that match. There is also a place for us to make comments, subjective things about a player that don't show up on a graded form.
Personally, I consider myself a very good judge of a player's mechanics and knowledge of the game. I can spot flaws in a player's stance, stroke, or alignment and tell you what kind of results those flaws will cause. Usually it's inconsistency in speed, spin, or aim. For example, if I see a tall player who bends too much at the waist instead of flexing his legs to get down on the shot, I can tell you that this player will have trouble using follow and draw consistently, and will miss some shots simply because his cue isn't level at address. This player will also tend to tire faster than others because of the strain on his neck and eyes from the strange posture. This is just one small example of the things we see when we observe players.
Obviously, you can't get an absolute read on a player's ability by watching one match. This is why the observer input is just one piece of the puzzle. Many times the NHRC will have a player watched more than once so they have input from more than one person. Over time they also get a good feel for how each individual observer judges ability, so they can "normalize" the info that comes in on the observer forms. These are also reasons why it takes so long to get to the DQ point for a given team.
Now, if a player or team is trying to hide something, the observers usually pick up on that. It is VERY difficult to hide good mechanics or table knowledge - these things are natural. When we see someone with great mechanics missing shot after shot or constantly hitting too hard, we become suspicious and note that in our comments. When we see a player's game change (after a time out, for example), we become suspicious and note that in our comments. The NHRC uses all of this info to reach their conclusions.
With regard to getting into trouble, the key factor is usually dishonesty. The APA does not want to penalize an honest player or team that just happens to get hot at the right time. The thing to remember is that your skill level is supposed to reflect your ability, not your average performance. This is probably why you get to be a seven sometimes, Tom 
The APA is the sole judge of a player's ability. This is stated in the Team Manual, as well as on the certification form every player signs before participating in a higher level tournament. It has to be that way - a democracy or "honor system" would never work, for obvious reasons. With that authority comes a great deal of responsibility, mainly to be fair and impartial. The APA takes this responsibility very seriously - imagine being holed up in a small room for ten days doing nothing but reviewing the matches played by more than a thousand teams in three national events - combining scoresheets, observer forms, and computer data. It's exhausting, but it's necessary, and the APA is the only national organization that is willing to go to that length to protect the integrity of their system. I should also mention that the observers, floor managers, referees, and some NHRC members are volunteers - we don't get paid for the hours we put in. We do it because we believe in the system and are willing to do the hard work to protect it and provide the best experience we can for our members.
Phil
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| trhxke |
Posted - 09/06/2006 : 11:40:24 PM
Phil, is there a list of skills and capabilities that suggest a player's skill level? I saw one a few years ago but have not seen it lately and honestly don't know if it was a legite list or if someone just made it up.
I wonder if anyone can honestly say what skills a 4 or 5 or 6 should have and at what point a 5 should be a 6..... or at what point a 5 should be a 7. There must be some check points that are used but what are they?
I personally can play at a very high level at times and at other times I may look like I have no idea what I'm doing. I know some others that play in a similar way and the consistency it the big difference between me and the higher (ranked) skilled players.
I also personally play much better in high pressure situations such as in the very tournaments that you are discussing in this thread. That does not mean I can maintain that level through out the season when playing in a lot of different bars, sometimes late at night after a long day at work, varying degrees of distraction or against players who are more than average at being annoying competitors etc.
I guess I would like to hear some specifics about what gets a player in trouble with regards to the skill level.
What I have heard so far has sounded like anyone can be questionable and the "Powers that be" have total authority to pick and choose who to question and how they should be questioned at a time that may be most critical to the teams ultimate success..."The Nationals".
I know that I always play the best I can but it does not always look that way to an objective observer (especially someone who may not know me personally). I have beaten every skill level in both 8 and 9 ball and at the same time I have lost to every skill level in both 8 and 9 ball some time at a point that would seem impossible.
I have made amazing shots under pressure in win/lose situations but I have also missed extremely easy shots in those same situations.
How does someone who may not know me see the difference and judge what my true ability is? How can I judge my own ability for that matter?
I would truely like to know and I bet there are lots of others in the APA that would also like to know.
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, darts and various colletibles. |
| Phil |
Posted - 09/06/2006 : 10:44:15 PM
Yes, it is true. The two 9-Ball teams that won the semifinals were both disqualified by the National Handicap Review Committee (NHRC). In all, five teams were disqualified this year, three in 9-Ball and two in 8-Ball.
When a team is disqualified, the team they beat in the previous round is advanced in the tournament. All the other teams that lost to a disqualified team share any prize money that team would have won, and in some cases are invited back to the national tournament the following year (provided they meet certain criteria for remaining qualified).
It is sad that teams have to be disqualified from the national tournament, and even worse that it has to happen so late in the event. In their national team championship materials every team is made aware of the things that could result in disqualification. They also have to fill out and sign a skill level certification form, just like the one we use for regionals. During the tournament, every match that is played gets reviewed by the NHRC and skill levels are monitored very closely. The NHRC coordinates their efforts with a team of Official Observers, whose job it is to watch players during the tournament and write an evaluation of their playing ability. The NHRC uses these write-ups in their review process (similar to the forms we use for Skill Level Evaluation).
When a team has met the criteria for disqualification, the NHRC must make a judgement call whether to DQ them or not. It's not an automatic thing - the APA wants to give every team the benefit of the doubt before taking action against them. This is why it happens so late in the tournament. A team can look perfectly fine in the computer at the start of the event. After their first round, the NHRC sees that one of the players had a good match. Well, anyone can have a good match, so before they raise that player's skill level they assign an observer to watch their next match. Sometimes that player doesn't play again for a couple of rounds, and in the mean time another player on the team has a good match. The NHRC assigns an observer for THAT player. Eventually the players in question are observed, but by then the team may be four or five rounds into the tournament.
The NHRC may raise one or more players, but the team still has not met the criteria for disqualification, so they assign an observer to watch the whole team in their next round. Maybe they raise another player or two following that round. Now the team is in jeopardy and a decision has to be made. Is it just a case of a team putting it all together at the right time, or were they underrated when they started? It usually takes at least one more round, to see how they do at their new skill levels before that question can be answered. By this time it's six or seven rounds (maybe more) into the tournament. That's why you see disqualifications after the quarterfinal or semifinal rounds.
Disqualification usually comes down to a team with several players who came into the tournament with skill levels that did not reflect their true playing abilities. Usually the players know that coming in and certify themselves at the lower levels anyway. It's this misrepresentation that usually gets them DQ'ed. It's not good enough to say "the system says I'm this, so why should I disagree?" That's why we tell all of our teams that if they're honest they will have no problems. If you think you can play better than your skill level, raise yourself on the certification form. Maybe you're wrong, maybe you'll get toasted at the higher skill level, but you will eliminate the risk of disqualification and the shame/embarrassment that follows.
Phil
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