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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2006 : 10:14:58 AM
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I would like to get some input before the captains meetings on the double hit rule.
I believe this league needs to have a definitive rule on double hits. Right now it stands that a nuetral party has to watch the hit and decide whether or not it was a double hit. I have had several instances where there was no one with the ability, that was a nuetral party to decide whether or not it was a legal hit. At that point my hands where tied, and I know at least one was a double hit.
I also play in the BCA and their rule is if the cue ball and the object ball are closer than the width of the chalk than the shooter can not shoot directly at the ball, and has to shoot at an angle to avoid the double hit.
A rule like this takes the decision out of the players hands and requires the shooter to play the shot properly. I don't know if this is the right way to do it or not, but I do think this needs a little thought.
I also want to wish everyone a MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR. |
Edited by - Kerry Randolph on 12/20/2006 10:15:51 AM |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 02:06:27 AM
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Hi
I think that the automatic foul rule is a bunch of bull, and here is why. I have demonstrated the ability to hit the ball using draw from within one chalk width between the cue ball and object ball without a double hit as i got the cue ball to draw on the shot. Further more one week one of my players shot a ball from an upward angle to avoid a double hit. The cue gained a small amount of elivation over the object ball making it take an odd angle but the person watching the hit called foul due to double hit when the other player even stated the hit was good. I think that people who watch the hit have made up there mind half of the time before the shot happens and if you ask me this should stop. When it comes to a third party when nobody else is around i found that a rep from each team works at least most of the time as they both watch the shot |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 10:53:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kerry Randolph
I would like to get some input before the captains meetings on the double hit rule.
I believe this league needs to have a definitive rule on double hits. Right now it stands that a nuetral party has to watch the hit and decide whether or not it was a double hit. I have had several instances where there was no one with the ability, that was a nuetral party to decide whether or not it was a legal hit. At that point my hands where tied, and I know at least one was a double hit.
I also play in the BCA and their rule is if the cue ball and the object ball are closer than the width of the chalk than the shooter can not shoot directly at the ball, and has to shoot at an angle to avoid the double hit.
A rule like this takes the decision out of the players hands and requires the shooter to play the shot properly. I don't know if this is the right way to do it or not, but I do think this needs a little thought.
I also want to wish everyone a MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR.
The problem with such a rule is that it still doesn't prevent a double hit, so what good is it? What is meant by "at an angle"? Ten degrees? Sixty? Who measures the angle? I called a double hit just last Tuesday on a shot where the shooter shot at a 45-degree angle. It would have been a double hit at 75 degrees.
By the way, what happens if I bring in a piece of chalk that's six inches wide?
Implementing a rule that says you have to shoot a certain way doesn't solve the problem, it only creates a penalty for not shooting a certain way. If I can avoid a double hit while shooting directly into the object ball (which I can do, by the way), why shouldn't I be allowed to do so?
The third party you mention doesn't have to be neutral, they just have to be agreed upon by both shooters. If there's still no one with the ability to make the call, then don't make the call.
"'Tis better to let 100 guilty men go free than to punish a single innocent man"...
Phil
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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 11:11:11 AM
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| I agree there are ways to prevent a double hit, but the majority of the players do not have the ability to do so, nor do they have the ability to acurately judge a double hit. Using a rep from each team can create a problem when the two reps see it differently. I do not run into the double hit rule that often, but I would like to be able to have a rule that is definitive and requires no judgement from a person watching. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 5:12:47 PM
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In that case, the choice is simple. Don't have the hit watched and don't call anything.
Phil
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Jinny
36 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2006 : 09:48:35 AM
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What a great topic. Let me see if I am reading this correctly.
Are you saying: There is NO AUTOMATIC FOUL when shooting directly at a ball within 1 chaulk distance from object ball to cue ball?
Jinny |
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Calcwby4u
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2006 : 11:02:13 AM
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| It sounds like it .... and from what I understand, while your playing your match you can go to any other table in the house and play another game .. (while it's not your shot I guess because you only have 20 seconds between shots and your time outs should only be 1 minute) ... and don't forget that during your time out you can put any downed balls on the table and have your coach demostrate how and where to hit the intended object ball as long as you don't hit any other ball on the table (I guess that means any object ball in play) ... OH!!!!! but you just can't hit those balls with the cue ball ... APA Rules seem to be getting so so so obscure and without logic ... or is it just me ..... |
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Jill
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2006 : 12:00:05 PM
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quote:
It sounds like it .... and from what I understand, while your playing your match you can go to any other table in the house and play another game .. (while it's not your shot I guess because you only have 20 seconds between shots and your time outs should only be 1 minute) ... and don't forget that during your time out you can put any downed balls on the table and have your coach demostrate how and where to hit the intended object ball as long as you don't hit any other ball on the table (I guess that means any object ball in play) ... OH!!!!! but you just can't hit those balls with the cue ball ... APA Rules seem to be getting so so so obscure and without logic ... or is it just me .....
Actually, the APA rules are simple and have changed relatively little over the last several years, especially concerning ball-in-hand fouls. It's the "rules" that are perceived by some players to be actual rules when they aren't rules published in the APA Team Manual or your local bylaws that make things seem complicated. For example: It is an automatic foul to shoot straight into an object ball when the cue ball is a chalk's distance away or less from the object ball - NOT an APA rule! Or: It is a foul for a coach during a timeout to use a pocketed ball to demonstrate where or how to execute a shot- NOT an APA rule! Trying to make new rules where they don't exist is what is "without logic." |
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Jinny
36 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2006 : 12:49:06 PM
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I was actually leading up to a point regarding this "automatic foul" business. I have been playing in the APA for 11 years and almost all of it as captain. Up until about 3 years ago, I had not encountered this attitude (yes I said attitude) regarding an automatic foul. I have had opposing captains actually REFUSE to watch the ball and simply state if he shoots it, it will be a foul. Not being the good captain and protecting my player’s ability, I let it go. I tell my player to make them pay. Usually this is enough to get the player passed having to change his/her shot selection needlessly. However, recently, bad feelings between my players and the opposing captain were achieved. This is the not the APA that I enjoy.
So, what I am after is a statement of recourse.
If the opposing player or captain refuses to watch (have watched) the hit, citing this “automatic foul” non-rule, what can I do?
The only reason I have not stopped the match and called the League Operators is because it’s disruptive to not only the current players, but the entire team. They get into an uproar trying to back me up. Then have trouble getting back to the task at hand, winning the match. I know there is no such rule. I just can’t get some folks to buy in.
Jinny
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Jill
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2006 : 1:21:33 PM
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| I would suggest that if another team/captain attempts to enforce a rule you do not believe is actually a rule, politely ask them to show you where it is written in the rule book or bylaws. If they cannot produce evidence that it is really a rule, politely explain that they cannot enforce a rule that is not written in the manual or bylaws. If you know for a fact that the "rule" another team is trying to enforce is not a rule, politely educate them as to that fact. If they are still uncooperative, report their behavior to the League Office. |
Edited by - Jill on 12/26/2006 1:25:48 PM |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2006 : 1:25:01 PM
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Simple Jinny. Hand the opposing captain your copy of the Team Manual and ask him/her to show you the section on automatic fouls.
There are only three possible outcomes when this situation comes up:
1) The shooter shoots without a third party watching the shot and both sides agree that a foul was committed.
2) The shooter shoots without a third party watching and the two sides disagree on whether a foul was committed. In this case the call will most likely go to the shooter.
3) A third party (agreed upon by both sides) watches the shot and makes a call. The call made by the third party stands.
When we say don't call a double-hit foul without a third party, we mean outcome (1) is not likely to occur so don't bother.
Phil
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2006 : 1:44:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Calcwby4u
It sounds like it .... and from what I understand, while your playing your match you can go to any other table in the house and play another game .. (while it's not your shot I guess because you only have 20 seconds between shots and your time outs should only be 1 minute) ... and don't forget that during your time out you can put any downed balls on the table and have your coach demostrate how and where to hit the intended object ball as long as you don't hit any other ball on the table (I guess that means any object ball in play) ... OH!!!!! but you just can't hit those balls with the cue ball ... APA Rules seem to be getting so so so obscure and without logic ... or is it just me .....
It's just you. The APA rules are pretty clear. Do whatever you want whenever you want - just don't violate the rules written in the Team Manual or the Local Bylaws. I don't care if you play on another table, go to the bathroom, sing karaoke, or even take a vacation in Australia, as long as you are at the table when it's your turn and you stick to the bylaws regarding timeliness of play. Similarly, I don't care if the coach takes a photo of the table, removes all the balls except the cue ball, uses the resulting open space to work a jigsaw puzzle, then puts all the balls back where the photo says they were, as long as none of the written rules regarding coaching are violated.
The rules are not confusing. Those who try to apply the rules to situations where they do not apply, or who try to make up new rules as Jill mentioned, are just confusing themselves and everyone else.
Phil
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2006 : 3:27:01 PM
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Rules are designed for one purpose only. To avoid conflict. If there is ever a dispute during a game, players should refer to the APA Team Manual (rule book) and their local bylaws. In addition, division reps can be consulted and, if a dispute still exists, any player can stop a match and call the league office for an official ruling.
The only time rules are not clear, is when players attempt to interpret the rules into something they were not designed to address. The part that a lot of players seem to miss is on page 2 of the APA Team Manual:
"Relax, enjoy yourself and play within the Spirit of the Rules as well as the written rule. It is impossible to cover every situation 100% with rules. Common sense must prevail. Teams that try to gain advantage by creating their own interpretations are subject to sportsmanship violations. Win at the table and not from the chair is a generality that promotes harmony, camaraderie and good times. That's what this League is all about."
No one expects all players to agree with all rules; however, when you become a member, you complete and sign a membership application to play in this league. That application states, as a member, you will abide by the rules, not that you will necessarily agree with them. There are several rules in our league that I'm not particularly crazy about, but as the League Operator, I will abide by and enforce the rules in the APA Team Manual using common sense and keeping the Spirit of the Rule in mind. |
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Matt
38 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2006 : 3:38:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by TazThere are several rules in our league that I'm not particularly crazy about, but as the League Operator, I will abide by and enforce the rules in the APA Team Manual using common sense and keeping the Spirit of the Rule in mind.
Let's hear 'em! I know you probably won't answer, but I'd love to know which rules you dislike.... |
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2006 : 06:46:56 AM
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You asked....my two least favorite league rules (one is a General Rule, the other an 8-Ball Game Rule) are (drum roll please):
1. Starting skill levels. Gentlemen start as 4s; Ladies start as 3s. And it is worse in 9-Ball where (unrated) Gentlemen start as 4s and (unrated) Ladies start as 2s.
AND
2. You are what you drop on the break. |
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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2006 : 12:03:30 PM
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Taz
What are your problems with these two rules? |
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Double Hit rule
Topic Locked
