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cjburgess
USA
10 Posts |
 Posted - 02/15/2007 : 1:10:34 PM
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| It's my understanding that a player can call timeout and have it rejected by the coach - but if anyone on the team calls timeout, it must be taken. What is the reason for this rule? |
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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 1:47:08 PM
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In my opinion the rule was designed to keep people on the side lines from giving advice on a shot. Example: You have a player that is looking at shooting a ball and you know that there is a better ball to shoot and you yell time out. The player says no and looks at the table a little differently sees what you saw and changes their shot. You helped that player illegaly. People also use laser pointers, a well timed cough, or even get up and walk over to a pocket to give a hint as to where to shoot a ball.
I hope this helps. |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 1:48:58 PM
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Hey Chris. Imagine the following. Some SL3 is playing an important match. Let's call him Torsten. Torsten lines up for a shot. One of his teammates who is a few drinks and God knows what else deep, yells timeout. The coach then says, "No. No timeout. Declined." Well, then Torsten knows he may very well be taking the wrong shot, and make adjustments accordingly and in the process, save that all too precious timeout.
The easiest way to avoid confusion is having the player elect who their coach will be at the start of the match. Either the player or the coach can call timeout, anyone else who believes one should be taken must suggest it quietly to the COACH.
The rule, I believe, is fair. If I had a dollar for everytime one of my inebriated teammates yelled "TIMEOUT!" during my shot when I didn't need it.... well, I'd have like three bucks. But still, it's annoying.
"The downside of being better than everyone is that people tend to assume you're pretentious." |
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 3:44:07 PM
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It's pretty much as stated above. The rule is designed this way so no assistance is given to the player without a timeout.
1) The player asking for a timeout and the coaching refusing, does not aid the player in any manner, yet allows the "coach" to save the timeout for a more opportune time.
2) Anyone on the team, in any way suggesting a timeout be taken, is giving notice to the player to stop and reassess what he or she is about to do.
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 4:11:00 PM
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Taz, thank you for the concise explanation. I was perusing the rule book online ((while on the clock, don't tell my boss)) and I didn't see anything defining a "coach" approaching the table but not calling a timeout. I understand the need for a coach to get a better angle of sight on whether his/her player is hooked, in danger of double hitting, or generally just in a really tough spot that may require a timeout. But there are some coaches that really take liberties under the pretense I just wanted a closer look to see if x ball was blocked or something like that. I definitely want to stay within the spirit of the game and not be a stickler on stuff like that, because the opposition's inexperienced players are just as deserving of coaching and opportunities to improve as mine are. But what's an appropriate spot to draw the line?
"The downside of being better than everyone is that people tend to assume you're pretentious." |
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cjburgess
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 5:11:03 PM
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Thanks for the response everyone. It didn't even cross my mind that it could turn into cheating. I only ask because I've seen a lot of frustration as of lately due to timeouts being called when the shooter did not think it was necessary (too early in a game, or just plain screwing up their rhythm).
Oh well, comes with the territory. |
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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 5:38:06 PM
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| This is where a captain or coach needs to know his or her players. If a player is more methodical, and really looks at the table before shooting than a time out probably wont bother them. However if a player is more of a rhythm shooter to stop them and break that rhythm can do more harm than good. It is a gamble when to call a timeout. I prefer to trust my players and let them shoot. |
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 5:43:19 PM
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Cjburgess, the best coaches allow their players to play their game and only intervene when the player asks for their assistance (calls a timeout) or is about to execute an 8-Ball shot which will 90% of the time result on a scratch. Having said that, there are an awful lot (probably the majority) who will call a timeout when they feel/think it is appropriate/necessary, regardless of what the player wants. Many a player would rather the "coach" not do so and be allowed to play out their game.
Torsten, draw the line right at the beginning. A "coach" should only approach the table during a timeout. Any other time, they should be back, away from the table. The excuses for approaching the table (need to look at the angle, danger of double hit, etc., etc., etc.) are just that, excuses. Let the player(s) play! No one should be approaching the table during a match other than the two players who are involved in the match and the coaches ONLY DURING A TIME OUT!
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Edited by - Taz on 02/15/2007 5:44:29 PM |
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MNGopher
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 6:09:35 PM
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laser pointers? wow, now that's a good one.
"I want large bread" Nigel Tufnel |
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 9:22:57 PM
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| Thanks for reminding me. Laser points are NOT ALLOWED. Anyone using one should stop immediately. If someone on the opposing team is using one, let them know they are illegal and needs to be put away. If they continue using it, call the office. |
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frank
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 10:12:26 AM
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| A similar thing happened to my team last week. On the first match of the night, my player had ball in hand with no timeouts and forgot what balls he was hitting. So he continued to hit the wrong ball and the gave ball in hand to other player and lost that game. Next game the other player received ball in hand and was getting ready to position the white ball, while she was doing that she had clear view of her teammates table, one player decided to get up very fast and turn around, so she stopped real quick, looked at the table again and decided to hit a different ball, and ended up winning the match. I didnt say nothing to the Captain, Because i didnt want the night to get all ugly. If it were a Captain i knew well, i would have said something, |
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jackmurray
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 11:22:07 AM
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This brings up a good (I hope) couple of questions regarding a situation that happened recently...... (8-Ball or 9-Ball I'm sure doesn't matter but this was in 9-Ball)...
Situation #1: Player A on my team, will call him Torsten, was shooting through his beer goggles at the 7-ball when I notice the 6-ball is still on the table. So I politely scream at the top of my lungs that he should be shooting at the "6". He straightens out his goggles and then shoots at the correct ball. The other team's captain, we'll call him..... Travis, looks at me like I should have kept my mouth shut and says that's going to cost me Torsten's timeout. Should this really be a time out (in normal weekly play)?
Situation #2: This also happened at a top shooter tournament and on this occassion the opponent got somewhat upset and actually thought that is/was a foul (they never asked for a ruling and they made sure it never happened again). So what's the ruling here?
To take situation #1 one step further, if this should be a timeout, and that team has already used their timeout(s), would it then be a foul?
Now, to go back to the posting before this one (if it is still the one before this one), the idea that the opponent allows his/her opposing player to continue to shoot the wrong balls and then takes ball in hand just doesn't seem very sportsman-like to me, with or without the goggles.
Incidently, if myself or anyone on any of my teams notices an opponent shooting at the wrong ball we tell them immediately, depending on our own beer goggles. I also would not charge the other team a timeout (or foul) if one of their own team-mates corrects their player as to shooting at the incorrect (or illegal) ball.
And finally, the names I used here are completely fictional and any similarities to any player in this league is merely/purely coincidental.
Please don't tell me that "Travis" is right....
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 11:43:54 AM
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Jack, it states clearly in the rule book that telling a player he is stripes or solids, reminding them to chalk up, or reminding them to mark their intended pocket for the black is NOT considered a timeout. I would say that if Torsten, whomever you may have been referring to there  , was lining up for the wrong ball, you are within your rights and within the rules to say, "Yo!!!! Dumb@$$!!!! In nine ball, we have to shoot sequentially!!" And then proceed to make fun of Torsten for the rest of the night. But seriously, you are not coaching (in my opinion) because you are not telling your player how to make a shot or assisting them in any way in getting position. That said, if someone on the other team saw this clearly and was intending to let Torsten shoot the wrong ball to get a ball in hand, while it may be within the rules, is not sportsmanlike.
"The downside of being better than everyone is that people tend to assume you're pretentious." |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 11:45:54 AM
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Oh, and the timeout thing. It also states clearly in the rulebook that calling timeout when all have been used is also NOT a foul. If the coach for team A calls time when they've been exhausted, the scorekeeper or captain of team B should politely inform the coach for team A that no more timeouts are available to them for the duration of that frame. The rule book also says that while this is not a foul, repeatedly calling timeouts when no more are available may result in a sportsmanship sanction.
"The downside of being better than everyone is that people tend to assume you're pretentious." |
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 12:02:41 PM
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Jack, in situations #1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 – No time-out and no foul.
…the opponent allows his/her opposing player to continue to shoot the wrong balls and then takes ball in hand just doesn't seem very sportsman-like to me, with or without the goggles.
You are absolutely correct. Sportsmanship would dictate that when you see a player lining up to shoot at the wrong ball, you stop them and let them know, before a foul occurs. Having said that, the APA Team Manual covers this exact scenario on pages 46(g) for 8-Ball and 64(e) for 9-Ball. As you know, the league office would have no choice but to rule (if asked to do so) “by the book”; however, it is my personal opinion (yeah, I have some of those) that knowingly allowing the shooter to pocket balls “until he feels inclined to call the foul” and calling him on it just prior to contacting the 8-Ball is chickenpoop.
Don’t forget one of our favorite refrains…SPORTSMANSHIP ABOVE ALL!! |
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MNGopher
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 3:49:50 PM
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A couple of thoughts, nothing more than an opinion on the silence during the wrong object ball thingy:
1.)Any rule that contains the clause "it is permissible, though not recommended"...says enough about the correct play. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what to do. Although I have yet to meet a rocket scientist, I'm assuming they are really really smart. Mistakes are made every night at the table, but to let something like this continue to the point where it directly affects the outcome of a game is a far worse play in my book. Win on your talent and some luck, not a manipulation of the rules.
2.) It is permissible to drink enough alcohol to forget that your object is the stripes or solids, but not recommended. Trust me on that one.
Having looked in the book (for once), the best part of that rule is: your opponent is obligated to tell you the truth if you ask him/her what you are shooting. Now, that said, if I knew for a fact that my opponent used that rule to an advantage last week....The next time my team faced that team, I would make it a point to ask that particular opponent before each and every shot what my object balls were. And I do mean each and every shot...
I come to play every Weds for the competition & comraderie of my teammates in the APA. We win, we lose, in the end there are many more important things than the MYP List, my SL (4 btw) and our team ranking.
"I want large bread" Nigel Tufnel |
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Denying a timeout
